If you haven't done so, and you have the time - the Z Man has an excellent outhouse synopsis of what is wrong with the church. I have been mulling that podcast over for a couple days now and am still stumped by it. It seems to be one of those things where everyone knows what is wrong, but nobody knows how to fix it. Or nobody wants to. This is not the ranting of an arrogant rabid atheist - if I understand the Z Man correctly, he is a lapsed Christian - but I am not sure. Either way he is respectful of Christians but he doesn't pull any punches with them either.
During the lecture he makes reference to a certain cleric or other who said something to the effect of, "It is not the church's mission to save America...". When I heard that, I just vapour locked. So... what IS the church's mission, exactly? I have to ask; because I see gay pride flags flying in front of schools and churches too. Queers and trannies (but I repeat myself) are taking to the pulpit; sinners are literally usurping the churches - and the clergy literally goes along with it.
I can almost bet our little church in the country is undergoing this battle right now: what is its purpose? Traditionally current events and politics are avoided like the plague there, and I get that to an extent. They are non-denominational church and do not believe in church doctrine - there is only God's doctrine, the Bible says what it means, and means what it says. It's a way of bulletproofing the church against the usual suspects that will come around trying to subvert the faith and twist it to support their sexual kinks and fetishes and progressive politics. Their purpose is to worship our Maker, be true to his word and that's it. They are 100% focused on that and nothing else.
I have caught snippets of angry arguments amongst the church elders recently. One recently retired and I think there is more to it than being old and tired, but whadda I know. Then, last weekend, one of the stubfarts got up there and he called out these churches on their ungodliness in a roundabout way. He made direct reference to the war on Christianity and the fact that Christians need to stand up to this kind of thing. I was all grins - I am glad someone in our church has the balls to say something about this crap.
But, looking around, I saw one of the elders fuming, another was rudely ignoring the speaker and was checking his phone and scribbling in a note book, and our retiree kept his expression neutral so I couldn't get a read on him at all. For the record, I like all those guys, they are all exemplary christians and far better men than I.
I was swapping comments with another blogger on it and he feels as our church elders do - 'be not of this world' and all that jazz. Fair enough, but I have read and heard elsewhere that it is the job of the churches and Christians to rebuke and correct bad behaviour amongst their number.
What IS the mission of the church?
What is 'the church'?
ReplyDeleteI have been pondering this too. Would the church encourage a murderer to continue murdering or a thief to continue thieving? I some how doubt it however the church seems to go out of its way to accept perverts. I get love the sinner hate the sin, where is repent and sin no more?
ReplyDeleteFitty
If we are to love the sinner… then what does that mean? That we are to embrace their sin and celebrate it? And mainstream their sin in order to make it a … non-sin…?
DeleteAll of use are sinners, Jesus died on the cross so that we could have eternal life. The rules are pretty specific if you read the Bible, the wages of sin is death, we can only be saved by repenting.
DeleteHere is one guy's take on what happened to Christianity:
ReplyDeletehttps://jamesperloff.net/war-on-christianity-part-1/
https://jamesperloff.net/war-on-christianity-part-2/
Hey Quartermain - good to see ya! How are you holding up these days? I wonder which of us has the worse leader these days...? From what I am seeing, Biden and Turdo are vying to be the first one shot by their own people, HAR HAR HAR!
DeleteThere is a heck of a lot to chew on there...
Keeping sane or close to it as I can... Between Biten and Turdo, which is worse? Man! That's a tough question! I think they both hit the point of no return, and hopefully we haven't. I'm hoping they get into a pissing contest (U.S. Army term for loud heated argument), forget Dueling is illegal, and tie in the kill shot. I can dream can't I?
DeleteI read Part 1. I'll see about reading Part 2 tomorrow.
DeleteThis is not a light or easy read.
Easy, preach the gospel and sanctification.
DeleteThe churches of the West are so busy tripping over themselves to please everyone, they've alienated 95% of their potential congregation.
ReplyDeleteNailed it.
DeleteI've moved around the U.S. a lot, and each time I land somewhere I look for a new church. I've seen one fantasy after another, all of which are not Biblical.
The pastor and the elders will skip over the hard parts of the Bible, and stick to the easy ones. I've had several arguments with holier-than-thou elders over Christianity, and a few of these discussions involved Bible verses that everyone could read and that didn't need any interpretation.
Oh well. Whatever.
Yup. Most of them are nothing more than community social clubs and aren't worth the time of day... If my church went squishy on the queers and/or marxism/feminism/woke bullshit... I'd walk out and not look back. I think most of us would....
DeleteThat situation you describe is very familiar to me. I was a Catholic until about 2010-ish when an very leftwing priest in our parish finally was the straw that broke the camel's back with me, and I left. And I could give a shit what "they" say about it, that guy may have had the badge and the uniform of the catholic church inc. but there was no Holy Spirit in "his" church and while I may be wrong for doing that I'm not the only or the most wrong as far as I'm concenred. When you go to "Mass" and the woke lefty fuckheads insert their politics into the Homily and make you mad every week, there's no Holy Spirit there no matter what the sign over the door says. The lefty politics were the final straw but there was much greater dishonesty etc imo from the Bishop and finally I wanted no part of it.
ReplyDeleteAbout 2 years ago I got reconciled (technically) with Rome but in a roundabout way I should mention for anyone else in a similar situation. I ran into a Priest of the "Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter" which short version are North American former Anglicans who had enough of the woke Anglican shit and about 2010, approached Rome and reconciled with the Pope and are now considered Roman Catholic. They're one of the Rites I think they're called as are the Marionites and others, it 'counts' as Catholic but has its own traditions.
I've been back to Church with them for about 2 years and am still learning the ropes, and honestly feeling them out since my trust was betrayed once before by men wearing dresses or whatever their robes are called.
So far so good. I think there are 3 wings or whatever they call it of this bunch of former Anglicans, one for America, one for Canada, and another for Australia/New Zealand. They count as Roman Catholic but keep all of the English traditions, which are generally similar to what I was used to but with some things added too.
If nothing else I think it's a big deal that this bunch of former Anglicans reconciled with Rome after what, almost 500 years of schism and it only got finalized a little over 10 years ago. Might be worth looking into if you feel you should be in Church but can't stand commie Pope. The Bishop of the Americans (maybe North America?) has about 24 parishes spread over the continent with the Bishop located in Houston, TX.
Tom from East Tennessee
The person who said "It is not the church's mission to save America" has it both exactly right and exactly wrong. He has it exactly right in that the function of the church is not a social one in the secular world. He has it exactly wrong because it is the purpose of individual Christians to change the world, and the church is what provides the individual Christian with the tools for his or her work in Christ.
ReplyDeleteThe big difference between "Mere Christianity" and Progressivism is the difference between being centered on the collective and the individual. Progressives/secular humanists believe that people are the product of their environment; if you can force change in society, then people will change to accommodate it. Traditional Christians believe that society is the byproduct of individual belief; if you change individuals, then societal change will follow.
The biblical example of this is Paul's letter to Philemon, where Paul returns a runaway slave named Onesimus to his master Philemon. Paul's big point is that since both Onesimus and Philemon are Christians, their relationship as brothers in Christ defines how they approach each other, and the master/slave relationship is irrelevant. Paul does not talk about how bad slavery is. He doesn't tell Onesimus to rise up and rebel. He doesn't tell Philemon to free all of his slaves. He says that the relationship between Christians and their entrance into the Kingdom of God makes everything else unimportant. If their relationship in Christ is correct, everything else will follow. This recognition, in turn, led to the rise of abolitionism in Christianity, first *among* Christians where Christian masters would manumit their Christian slaves, to individual acts where opposition to slavery and freeing of slaves was an act of Christian charity (e.g St. Patrick, St. Ambrose), to social change at large, which required a Christian society..
Being a Christian is not just having a set of beliefs or a few rules. It is having a well-defined and mature world view that is based in the Christ. Building that kind of world view is not easy, and it requires mentoring and teaching from those who are more mature than the seeker, and it requires in turn that one shares one's experiences with those who can benefit from it.
A church that correctly encourages, teaches, supports, and disciplines its members will first create better and organized Christians. Those Christians in turn, will naturally then change society. This doesn't mean that every act is independent; Christians of course act in concert with it's useful, but that's a tactical, not strategic, decision. The decision to build a church-based community health clinic, for instance, comes from the natural inclination of individual Christian healthcare workers to work together.
The purpose of the Church is to establish and organize this important relationship between Christians. As Paul notes, we all have different gifts and talents, and we must work together to benefit from all of them. It is where we define how we work within the Kingdom of God. It is where we work together to support each other, discipline each other, teach each other, and grow in our relationship with Christ.
Unfortunately, as you note, the opposite can happen. When people who have their Christian identity contaminated with secular world views dominate the congregation, then the congregation becomes more secular. John the Revelator notes specifically in his accusation against the Church of Pergamon, that the poisoning of the church with tolerance of immorality (e.g. Nicolaitanism and the teachings of Balaam mentioned by John) contaminate the Christian Kingdom of God with the secular Kingdom of Satan.
That tends to be my thought process but I think you articulated it better than I could.
Delete"If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything."
ReplyDeleteSounds to me like this is the church's problem in a nutshell....like pretty much everything else.
Determining what's wrong is easy. People, in general, don't want to submit to authority and Christians are no exception. It's been going on since Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit.
ReplyDeleteHow to fix it? How do you get people to believe in and then submit to God's authority? Many are called but few are chosen. Wide is the gate and broad is the road ....
For example, how many adult Christian males (supposed heads of the family that lead by example) reading this post actually ask God for help to be a better Christian each and every day? How many are willing to ask God to help them change the way they speak(words they use) and act? How many are willing to ask God for permission to read what they read (internet sites included), watch what they watch (internet videos included), listen to what they listen to, etc? How many are willing to give God permission to prune and cut out of their lives all that God doesn't want in it? How many men are willing to ask God to grade them on how good a husband, father, employee, brother, son, etc they are? How many are willing to get on their knees and *sincerely* pray that they open every door in their life to God and want Him to come in and start making changes? Notice all that is about *you* and not other people. Change isn't about forcing others to do X, Y, or Z. It's about actively letting God into your life to do what He wants to do. And it's *every* *single* *day*, over and over, from grace to grace.
It's not going to happen because most everybody wants everyone else to change but they don't want to change themselves. Glen, you're the perfect example. Do you ask God on a daily basis to help you with what you say? With what you post? Do you ask Him to proof what you write before you post and let Him make edits? From what I read I would guess no. I'd like to be wrong. But I bet you're going to keep on doing what you do, posting with the language you want, and complain about everybody else but you won't ask God to help change you especially when it's difficult and it hurts.
That's why the church has no power. Very few people are willing to let God direct their lives because they aren't willing to pay the price of obedience. Being spirit led means that you ask the Holy Spirit what to say and do for just about everything in your entire life *and* when He tells you to do something you actually do it. The Holy Spirit is so easily grieved (1 Thes 5:19, Eph 4:40, Isa 63:10). If you don't listen for His quiet voice then you're not going to hear it. You'll be no better off than all the non-believers out there. The only difference is you'll have a Christian name tag on your shirt but you'll talk and act just like everyone else. What's that saying? If you were on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
I can offer many, many suggestions to young/immature Christians on how to change your life. Just ask and I can get you started. But it will hurt and it will cost. You will lose friends. You won't get to do what you want. You'll have to learn to be careful what you say and write. You'll learn to be difficult to offend and quick to forgive. You'll learn to start confessing your sins. You'll learn to behave when the Father tells you, "No!" If you haven't heard God tell you "No" in a while then you are either a fine example of a Christian or you are so far away from Him that you can't hear His voice. And if you can't hear and recognize His voice then you should be very, very concerned. Concerned not about others and what they are doing but concerned about your own life!